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: East Peoria Gulls  ( 2227 )

Matthew Winks

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East Peoria Gulls
« : February 12, 2012, 04:48:10 PM »
I found two interesting gulls at East Port Marina today (2/12). This is in East Peoria, Tazewell County. I can't decide if the first bird is Thayer's or Iceland (Kumlien's). It appears to be molting in new primaries, making it difficult to know what they are going to look like. It feels like Thayer's, but I tend to default to Thayer's in my area and prefer any Iceland Gull to look impeccable. Let me know what you think.








The second gull, I think, might be a Nelson's Gull (Herring X Glaucous Gull hybrid). It looks like a 2nd cycle Glaucous Gull with pale eyes, bicolored bill, but darker primaries.











I welcome any and all feedback.

« : February 12, 2012, 05:03:08 PM Matthew Winks »
If we pollute the air, water and soil that keep us alive and well, and destroy the biodiversity that allows natural systems to function, no amount of money will save us.

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Matthew Cvetas

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Re: East Peoria Gulls
« #1 : February 12, 2012, 05:11:41 PM »
I think you've got both right, Winks.

The mantle of the adult bird doesn't seem any lighter than the Herring Gull. And the primaries seem a bit dark for Iceland (Kumlien's).

The first second cycle bird appears intermediate with distinctly bi-colored bill, overall whitish aspect, and dark brown primaries with white edges.
« : February 13, 2012, 06:25:46 AM Matthew Cvetas »
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bill rudden

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Re: East Peoria Gulls
« #2 : February 12, 2012, 05:49:10 PM »
Good stuff Matthew.  Thanks.
 .
« : February 12, 2012, 06:02:53 PM bill rudden »

Ethan Gyllenhaal

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Re: East Peoria Gulls
« #3 : February 12, 2012, 06:40:22 PM »
The adult bird looks intermediate to me, this would be on the very pale edge of Thayer's color-wise (and Kumlien's can get darker than this), and the primary pattern (white tip to p10 and a clean p5) is mostly show by Kumlien's, rarely by Thayer's. I had 3 birds similar to this but darker shade to the primaries at NPM in 1 day, calling all of them intermediate (1 was very Kumlien's-looking).

The 2nd cycle bird looks great for a Nelson's! It is interesting how it lacks any significant grey on the mantle at this time of year with it being a 2nd cycle bird, which is also seen in pure Glaucous Gulls. I had a Nelson's (adult) in Appleton, WI this Saturday.

Ethan

bill rudden

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Re: East Peoria Gulls
« #4 : February 12, 2012, 06:51:46 PM »
Good stuff Matthew.  Thanks.
  Yeah, the more you look at the Nelson's the cooler it gets.
Check out the white scaps on far side and peppered tertials on near.

Your 2ND cycle Nelson's is a really nice find Matthew.
Good field work and pics.

Amar Ayyash

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Re: East Peoria Gulls
« #5 : February 12, 2012, 06:56:17 PM »
Nice birds, Matthew. It looks like you have a nice accumulation of ice there. The only extra thought I would add that hasn't already been mentioned is the structure of the head (in the two standing photos). I think you'll agree it's more suggestive of Thayer's.

The Nelson's looks like a 2nd cycle (an age I'm itching to see in the field!!!).
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Michael Retter

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Re: East Peoria Gulls
« #6 : February 12, 2012, 08:17:58 PM »
The adult bird looks intermediate to me, this would be on the very pale edge of Thayer's color-wise (and Kumlien's can get darker than this), and the primary pattern (white tip to p10 and a clean p5) is mostly show by Kumlien's, rarely by Thayer's. I had 3 birds similar to this but darker shade to the primaries at NPM in 1 day, calling all of them intermediate (1 was very Kumlien's-looking).

The 2nd cycle bird looks great for a Nelson's! It is interesting how it lacks any significant grey on the mantle at this time of year with it being a 2nd cycle bird, which is also seen in pure Glaucous Gulls. I had a Nelson's (adult) in Appleton, WI this Saturday.

Ethan

I agree with Ethan on all points.
Michael Retter
Fort Worth, TX
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Matthew Winks

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Re: East Peoria Gulls
« #7 : February 14, 2012, 09:13:16 AM »
Thank you all for you comments, I appreciate them. It's seems twisted that everybody is more confident about the Nelson's Gull than putting any name on the Thayer's/Kumlien's bird. I sort of felt the same way in the field. Maybe we should come up with a name for these birds. We obviously see enough of them. I do think the head shape and markings look better for Thayer's, but haven't seen any Icelands since last winter. So, I kind of forget what their heads look like in the field. Nonetheless, since I need Iceland Gull in Tazewell County, I will be counting this as an Iceland (Kumlien's).  ;)
« : February 15, 2012, 01:37:30 AM Matthew Winks »
If we pollute the air, water and soil that keep us alive and well, and destroy the biodiversity that allows natural systems to function, no amount of money will save us.

~David Suzuki

Steve Spitzer

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Re: East Peoria Gulls
« #8 : February 16, 2012, 12:30:42 PM »
I don't think I have ever seen an adult Iceland Gull, but all the adult Thayer's I have seen had richer pink legs than the Herring Gulls, and yours does not in that second shot, so I would lean towards Iceland with a solid perhaps thrown in.

Steve
Steve Spitzer

Matthew Winks

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Re: East Peoria Gulls
« #9 : February 16, 2012, 01:19:07 PM »
I don't think I have ever seen an adult Iceland Gull

That's surprising. With all the time you spend on the lakefront, I figured you would have seen or photographed an adult Iceland Gull by now. I'm coming up tomorrow, before the Gull Frolic, to do some gulling. I'll be bringing bread to chum also. Let me know if you want to meet up and maybe, if we're lucky, we can spot and photograph a nice Iceland Gull, which happens to be my favorite gull.
If we pollute the air, water and soil that keep us alive and well, and destroy the biodiversity that allows natural systems to function, no amount of money will save us.

~David Suzuki

Ethan Gyllenhaal

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East Peoria Gulls
« #10 : February 17, 2012, 10:38:49 AM »
I believe Kumlien's and Thayer's have about the same leg color, primary pattern and to some extent shape and the shade of the primaries (a lot of overlap for both features) are the best ways to tell.

Steve Spitzer

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Re: East Peoria Gulls
« #11 : February 18, 2012, 10:23:39 AM »
The only extra thought I would add that hasn't already been mentioned is the structure of the head (in the two standing photos). I think you'll agree it's more suggestive of Thayer's.

Looking at all my bird books and pictures of Iceland and Thayer's Gulls, the head shape is not mentioned as differing in the books, and looks the same to me. Is there something I am missing?

Steve
Steve Spitzer

Amar Ayyash

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Re: East Peoria Gulls
« #12 : February 18, 2012, 06:57:51 PM »
Steve, it's been my experience that a small minority of Thayer's (males?) can show large, blocky, to squared heads. Here's an example:,


Thayer's Gull. Seattle, WA. 01 Jan 2012.

I've yet to see a gull that I believed to be a Kumlien's that shows this shape. With that said - yes - both species typically show roundish heads to varying degrees.
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Steve Spitzer

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Re: East Peoria Gulls
« #13 : February 18, 2012, 07:37:55 PM »
Thanks for reply Amar. The head on your bird, to me anyway, looks to have exactly the same shape as this Iceland Gull I photographed at Loyola last year.

Steve Spitzer

bill rudden

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Re: East Peoria Gulls
« #14 : February 18, 2012, 07:48:22 PM »
Steve, it's been my experience that a small minority of Thayer's (males?) can show large, blocky, to squared heads. Here's an example:,


Thayer's Gull. Seattle, WA. 01 Jan 2012.

I've yet to see a gull that I believed to be a Kumlien's that shows this shape. With that said - yes - both species typically show roundish heads to varying degrees.

Although this thread is getting fluid.

Amar's Thayer's is a interesting gull. 
RE: light eyes; less than black in wings (IMO)


 

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