EURO Herring. Carlyle

[bill rudden]

[Kumlieni]

I would be thinking along the lines of a Lesser Black-backed X Herring Gull hybrid, not Euro Herring Gull.  It looks perfect for this hybrid combination which seems to be increasing along the Atlantic Coast and eastern Great Lakes in the past 4-5 years. The bird looks like a LBBG but it has a Herring-like inner primary window, Herring-like but somewhat intermediate greater coverts, and head and bill that look intermediate. 

Cheers,

Cameron Cox

[Amar Ayyash]

I would be thinking along the lines of a Lesser Black-backed X Herring Gull hybrid, not Euro Herring Gull.  It looks perfect for this hybrid combination which seems to be increasing along the Atlantic Coast and eastern Great Lakes in the past 4-5 years. The bird looks like a LBBG but it has a Herring-like inner primary window, Herring-like but somewhat intermediate greater coverts, and head and bill that look intermediate.  

Cheers,

Cameron Cox

We recently had an inquiry on this forum regarding Herring Gull VS Lesser Black-backed Gull ID in first cycle by Beau Schaefer. I mentioned to Beau that the two had recently hybridized in North America. See http://www.ilbirds.com/index.php?topic=30354.0

It's very exciting to know IL may be hosting this hybrid combination. Emphasis on MAY BE.
Bill, I hope you post this bird on ID Frontiers.

Cameron, any idea(s) where these hybrids are originating from geographically?  What race of LBBG? Where could one find more information on ID?

A couple links:
http://www.coastside.net/chucao/gulls/FloridaGulls.htm
http://seanetters.wordpress.com/2009/01/26/the-adventures-of-a-euro-gull/
http://seanetters.wordpress.com/2009/03/31/presumed-hybrid-gull-sighting-in-florida/

Thanks,
Amar Ayyash

[tom_lally]

I would suspect that the origin of such a pairing would be here in North America. With the large numbers of Lesser Black-backed Gulls found here every winter, and to a lesser extent found in other seasons here, it wouldn't suprise me one bit if these "strays" were pairing with the closely related American Herring Gulls. I would think Iceland would be an unlikely source due to the relative scarcity of Herring Gulls, but I don't know. I am a bit suprised that more LBBGs haven't yet been detected breeding on this continent.
Just my .02 .

[JanJ]

Hi all.

The inner primaries might be on the pale side for smithsonianus - some could  actually fit this pattern. Other features, such as the tail pattern is within the variation for smithsonianus - however, also for some argentatus/argenteus! The upper and undertail coverts looks better for smithsonianus compared to argentatus/argenteus.
Compare with this smithsonianus  (http://www.peregrineprints.com/Gulls/HEGU/1_08jan05.htm). Note the outer t-feathers and the extensive barring to the base, not in all smithsonianus and therefore overlapping with European Herring. I wonder about Cameron's hybrid theory, not that I´m disputing anything, just curious.


Some European Herring's by Peter Adriaens, which shows how variable tail pattern can be.

http://picasaweb.google.be/Zorkyyy/EuropeanHerringGull_1stcycle_tailpatterns#

JanJ

[Amar Ayyash]

It appears this bird has what looks like pale inner webs to some of the outter primaries. Namely, P7-P9 on the left wing in frame 4. The paleness is not extensive but it would help support European Herring. The tail still seems closer to smithsonianus.

I'm not sure what the wing pattern would look like on AMHG X LBBG. Does anyone have a resource for this hybrid?

Thanks,
Amar

[Amar Ayyash]

I found this pssb. EURO Herring Gull on Martin Reid's website. Although it has a paler aspect, its upper tail and wing pattern resemble Bill's bird.

http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/gullsp163.html

[bill rudden]

I found this pssb. EURO Herring Gull on Martin Reid's website. Although it has a paler aspect, its upper tail and wing pattern resemble Bill's bird.

http://www.martinreid.com/Gull%20website/gullsp163.html

Thanks Amar:

You have a good grasp and keen sense for gulls.

This isn't Texas and I certainly don't have the genius of Martin.
This gull was a very rare find.  I've never seen one, or have seen one posted from the Midwest.

The gull shows all the marks of a Euro. type Herring. 
I have a hard time accepting the tail as being within the range of Smith.
Here a pic from a distance showing the striking tail band: 

[bill rudden]

Thanks Jan:

You write: "  Compare with this smithsonianus"  (http://www.peregrineprints.com/Gulls/HEGU/1_08jan05.htm).  

Note in Brandon's pic the ribbed outer web of R6.  This smith. like feature absent (3 widely spaced bars) in Carlyle gull.

[Michael Retter]

I tend to agree with Cameron. Since it's literally thousands of miles more likely, eliminating LBBG x HERG seems the necessary place to start.

[Amar Ayyash]

I would suspect that the origin of such a pairing would be here in North America. With the large numbers of Lesser Black-backed Gulls found here every winter, and to a lesser extent found in other seasons here, it wouldn't suprise me one bit if these "strays" were pairing with the closely related American Herring Gulls. I would think Iceland would be an unlikely source due to the relative scarcity of Herring Gulls, but I don't know. I am a bit suprised that more LBBGs haven't yet been detected breeding on this continent.
Just my .02 .

Tom, I think I agreed with your answer before I even read your post; such a pairing should be a product of eastern N. America. I wonder if this is LBBGs way of establishing itself as a regular breeder in N. America...imagine the possibilities in the years to come. What if there become more hybrids than pure LBBGs? There are plenty of Herrings for the taking! Or, what if AMHG X LBBG develops hybrid zones like parts of Washington and Oregon for WEGU X GWGU?  What if...what if...what if..?  

Bill, if you don't mind, I'd like to take your photos to the Gull Conference next month. Bruce Mactavish is giving a talk on hybrids, including the increasing occurrunce of this particular hybrid combination. I promise to give you full credit and not to tell folks what we "think" it is until they've given a response.

Michael, I suppose one could argue that there are "thousands" of more EURO Herrings in the world than AMHG X LBBGs  

[bill rudden]

Hi Amar:

Yes you're welcome to the pics.
I'm not in the Hybrid* camp.  My pics from a cloudy day darken the bird.
The tail band is the ONLY mark from a supposed LBB influence.
The patterned scaps and the unmarked inner webs of inner primaries don't add up to LBB.
 
NOTE: Dan K. saw the gull briefly in the spill yesterday.  
        
*You're correct Amar, hybrids are also very rare.
 "What we think it is."  I think it is not a smith.

[JanJ]

Just out of interest, here´s the 'problem' the other way around, that is to say - from an european (Norway) point of view:

http://ostfoldmaker.blogspot.com/

The r6 pattern may not be such a reliable feature - since some smithsonianus (taken in N.A) can be quite similar to argentatus/argenteus.
There seems to be much overlap between smithsonianus and argentatus/argenteus and the problematics is not to be taken lightly! I fact, I think that some individuals are not identifiable! 

These are interesting (which you have seen no doubt) with some interesting answers:

http://www.zbirdtours.com/dbs_herg.htm

http://www.virtualbirder.com/bmail/idfrontiers/200912/w3/index.html#19

http://www.virtualbirder.com/bmail/idfrontiers/200912/w3/index.html#16

http://www.virtualbirder.com/bmail/idfrontiers/200912/w3/index.html#26

You might also have seen this one, which I think is a good candidate for smithsonianus after all!

http://larusology.blogspot.com/

Peter Adriaens have provided a good answer - check his own linked argentatus/argenteus!


JanJ

[bill rudden]

12-24-09. IMO.
The Carlyle tail-band Herring:

 Below a L.smith. type from today in the rain, showing white w/bars base to tail.
Note the solid outer greater secondary coverts and ribbed outer web to outer retrix (R6)

Another hybrid? Also, (in the rain) this bird (pics) shows a small head?

[bill rudden]

NEW PICS from Dan Kassebaum.
http://www.htc.net/~kdan/report.htm
Dan likes the bird as a non-L.smith. (non-N.America)

I'm now seeing NE Herrings IE: dark brown 1st, and hooded adult types.
I favor the Euro. connection
 Here what I call a Newfoundland Herring Gull:w/white-tipped P10